Was Christ Crucified ?

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Was Christ crucified?THE DEBATEtook place in August, 1981,in Durban, South Africa.THE PARTICIPANTSwere Josh McDowell andAhmed Deedat, thepresident of the IslamicPropagation Centre inDurban, South Africa.The debate, a transcript of whichappears on the following pages,was divided into three parts:Opening arguments, 50 minutes.Rebuttals by each, 10 minutes.Closing statements, 3 minutes.TRANSCRIPT OF THE DEBATE* OPENING ARGUMENTS# Ahmed DeedatMr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. On the subject of crucifixion,the Muslim is told in no uncertain terms, in the Holy Qur’an, thelast and final revelation of God, that they didn’t kill Him, nor didthey crucify Him. But it was made to appear to them so. And those whodispute therein, are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge;they only follow conjecture, guesswork. For of a surety, they killedHim not.Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. Could anyone have been moreexplicit, more dogmatic, more uncompromising, in stating a beliefthan this? The only one who was entitled to say such words is theall-knowing, omniscient Lord of the universe.The Muslim believes this authoritative statement as the veritableWord of God. And as such, he asks no questions, and he demands noproof. He says, “There are the words of my Lord; I believe, and Iaffirm.” But the Christian responds in the words of our honorableguest. In his book, Josh McDowell with Don Stewart in “Answers totough Questions” on pages 116 and 117, states the Christian’s atti-tude toward this uncompromising statement of the Muslim. He says,”A major problem with accepting Mohammed’s account is that his testi-mony is 600 years after the event occurred, while the New Testamentcontains eyewitness, or first hand, testimony of the life and mini-stry of Jesus Christ.”In a nutshell, the Christian asks how can a man a thousand milesaway from the scene of the happening of the crucifixion and 600 yearsin time away from the happening know what happened in Jerusalem? TheMuslim responds that these are the words of God Almighty. And there-fore, as such, God knew what had happened. The Christian naturallyreasons that, had he accepted this book, the Qur’an, as the Word ofGod, there would have been no dispute between us. We would all havebeen Muslims!We have eyewitness and earwitness accounts of these happeningswhich are stated for us in the Holy Bible, more especially in thegospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Now, the implication of thiscrucifixion is this: it is alleged that Jesus Christ was murdered bythe Jews by means of crucifixion 2,000 years ago, And as such, theJews are guilty of the murder of Jesus Christ. We Muslims are toldthat they are innocent because Christ was not killed, nor was Hecrucified, And as such, I am given the [mandate] by the Holy Qur’anto defend the Jews against the Christian charge. I’m going to defendthe Jews this afternoon, not because they are my cousins, but simplybecause justice must he done.We have our points of difference with the Jews – that is a differentquestion altogether. This afternoon, I will try my very best to dojustice to my cousins, the Jews.Now, in this argument, this debate, this dialogue, I am actuallythe defense counsel for the Jews, and Josh McDowell is the prosecu-ting counsel. And you, ladies and gentlemen, are the ladies and gent-lemen of the jury. I want you to sit back, relax and at the end ofthis, give judgment to yourself, to your own conscience whether theJews are guilty or not of the charge as alleged by the Christians.Now, to get to the point, as the defense counsel for the Jews,I could have had this case against the Jews dismissed in just twominutes – in any court of law, in any civilized country in the world,simply by demanding from the prosecuting counsel the testimonies ofthese witnesses, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, And when they are pre-sented, in the form of sworn affidavits, as we have them in thegospels, I could say that, in their original, they are not attested.And the proof – you get any authorized King James Version of theBible, and you’ll find each and every affidavit begins: “The Gospelaccording to St. Matthew, the Gospel according to St. Mark, the Gospelaccording to St. Luke, the Gospel according to St. John.” I’m asking,ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what is this “according … accor-ding … according”? Do you know what it means? It means Matthew,Mark, Luke and John didn’t sign their names. It is only assumed thatthese are their work. And as such, in any court of law, in any civi-lized country, they would be thrown out of court in just two minutes.Not only that, I can have this case dismissed TWICE in two minutesin any court of law in any civilized country. I said twice becauseone of the testators in the Gospel of St. Mark, chapter 14, verse 50,tells us that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus, allHis disciples forsook Him, and fled. ALL. If they were not there, thetestimony of those who were not there to witness what happened willbe thrown out of court. I said, twice in two minutes, in just 120seconds flat, the case would be over. In any court of law. in anycivilized country in the world.But where is the fun of it? You have come a long way from far andwide, after all the threatening rains. And now, if we say the case isclosed and go home, where is the fun of it? To entertain you, I willaccept those documents as valid, for the sake of this dialogue, andwe are now going to put these witnesses into the box for cross-examination. And I want you to see where the truth lies.The first witness that I’m going to call, happens to be St. Luke.And St. Luke has been described by Christian authorities as one ofthe greatest historians. As a historical book, the Gospel of St. Lukeis unique. Now, we get St. Luke. chapter 24. verse 36. I’m going totell you what he has said – what he has written in black and white.He tells us that it was Sunday evening, the first day of the week,when Jesus Christ walked into that upper room, the one in which Hehad the Last Supper with His disciples. This is three days after Hisalleged crucifixion. He goes in, and He wishes His disciples, “Peacebe unto you.” And when He said, “Peace be unto you,” His discipleswere terrified. Is that true? We’re asking you. I would like to askHim, why were the disciples terrified? Because when one meets hislong-lost master, his grandfather, his guru, his Rabbi – we Easternpeople embrace one another; we kiss one another. Why should Hisdisciples be terrified? So Luke tells us they were frightened, be-cause they thought He was a spirit.I’m only quoting what he said. And you can verify in your ownBible at home. They were frightened, they were terrified because theythought He was a spirit. I’m asking Luke, did He look like a spirit?And he says no. I’m asking all the Christians of the world again andagain, of every church and denomination, this master of yours, did Helook like a spirit? And they all say no. Then I say, why should theythink that man is a spirit when He didn’t look like one?And everyone is puzzled – unless Josh can explain. Every Christianis puzzled. Why should they think the man is a spirit when He didn’tlook like one? I will tell you. The reason is because the disciplesof Jesus had heard from hearsay that the Master was hanged on thecross. They had heard, from hearsay, that He had given up the ghost.In other words. His spirit had come out: He had died. They had heardfrom hearsay that He was dead and buried for three days. All theirknowledge was from hearsay, because as I said at the beginning (Mark,chapter 14, verse 50), your other witness says that at the most criti-cal juncture in the life of Jesus all His disciples forsook Him andfled. All! They were not there.So, all the knowledge being from hearsay, you come across a per-son who you heard was dead for three days. You assume that He’sstinking in His grave. When you see such a person. naturally, you’reterrified. So Jesus wants to assure them that He’s not what they’rethinking. They are thinking that He has come back from the dead. Aresurrected, spiritualized body, so He says – I am only quoting whatLuke says – He says, “Behold My hands and My feet.” Have a look atMy hands and My feet, that it is I, Myself. I am the same fellow,man, what’s wrong with you? Why are you afraid? He says, “Handle Meand see. Handle Me and see. For a spirit has no flesh and bones, asyou see me have.”A spirit: indefinite article “a.” A spirit, any spirit, has noflesh and bones, as you see me have. So, if I have flesh and bones,I’m not a spirit: I’m not a ghost: I’m not a spook. I am asking theEnglish man – the one who speaks English as his mother tongue – sinceI have flesh and bones. I’m not a spirit: I’m not a ghost: I’m not aspook. I say. is that what it means in your language?I say, you Afrikaner, when a man tells you that, does it mean thathe’s not what you are thinking? That is, he is not a spirit, he isnot a ghost, he is not a spook. And everybody responds “yes.” If aman tells you a spirit has no flesh and bones, it means it has noflesh and bones. As you see, I have these things, so I’m not whatyou’re thinking. You are thinking that I was dead, and I have comeback from the dead and am resurrected. If a spirit has no flesh andbones, in other words, he’s telling you that the body you are seeingis not a metamorphosed body. It is not a translated body; it is nota resurrected body. Because a resurrected body gets spiritualized.Who says so? My authority is Jesus. You say, “Where?” I say Luke,you look again – chapter 20 in verse 36. What does he say? You see,the Jews were always coming to Him with riddles; they were alwaysasking Him, “Master, shall we pay tribute to Caesar or not? Master,this woman, we found her in the act. What shall we do to her? Master…” Again and again. Now, they come to Him and they ask Him, itsays. “Master,” Rabbi in the Hebrew language, “Master, we had a womanamong us, and this woman according to a Jewish custom, had seven hus-bands.” You see, according to a Jewish custom, if a brother of a mandies and leaves no offspring. then the man takes his brother’s wifeto be his own wife. And when he fails the third brother does likewise,and the fourth and the fifth and the sixth, and the seventh.Seven brothers had this woman as a wife. but there was no problemwhile on this earth because it was all one by one. Now, they want toknow from Him that at the resurrection, in the hereafter, which oneis going to have her, because they all had her here. In other words,there will be a war in heaven, because we believe that we will all beresurrected simultaneously. All together. at one time. And theseseven brothers wake up at the same time. and they see this woman andevery one would say, “My wife! My wife!” and there would be a war inheaven between the brothers for this one woman.So they want to know from Him which one is going to have her on theother side. Luke. chapter 20, verse 36. Check it out. In answer tothat. Jesus said about these resurrected men and women, “Neithershall they die anymore.” In other words, “Once they are resurrected,they will be immortalized.” This is a mortal body. It needs food,shelter, clothing, sex, rest. Without these things mankind perishes.That body will be an immortalized body. An immortal body, no food,no shelter, no clothing, no sex, no rest. He says neither shall theydie anymore. For they are equal unto the angels.In other words, they will be angel-ized. They will be spiritualized;they will be spiritual creatures; they will be spirits! For they areequal unto angels and the children of God. Such are the children ofthe resurrection – spirit! He said “A spirit has no flesh and bones,as you see Me have.” In other words, “I’m not resurrected.” And theybelieved not for joy and wonders – Luke 24 again. What happened then?We thought the man was already dead, perhaps stinking in His grave.And they believed not for joy – overjoy – and they wonder what hap-pened? So He says, “Have you any broiled fish and a honeycomb here,meat – something to eat?” And they gave Him a piece of bread and Hetook it and ate it in their very sight. To prove what? I’m askingladies and gentlemen of the jury, what was He trying to demonstrate?What? “I am the same fellow, man; I am not what you are thinking, Ihave not come back from the dead.”This was Sunday evening after the alleged crucifixion.Let’s go back. What happened in the morning? Your other witness,John, chapter 20, verse 1, tells us that it was Sunday morning, thefirst day of the week, when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus.I’m asking John, why did she go there? Or, let’s put another of yourwitnesses on the stand, Mark, chapter 16, verse 1. Mark, tell us -why did Mary go there? And Mark tells us, “She went to anoint Him.”Now, the Hebrew word for anoint is ‘massahah’ from which we get theword messiah in Hebrew and masih in Arabic. The root word for bothArabic and Hebrew is the same. Massahah means to rub, to massage, toanoint.I’m asking, do Jews massage dead bodies after three days? And theanswer is no. I say to you Christians, do you massage dead bodies af-ter three days? Do you? The answer is no. We Muslims are the closestto the Jew in our ceremony of law. Do Muslims massage dead bodies af-ter three days? The answer is no. Then why would they want to go andmassage a dead, rotten body after three days? Within three hours,you know that rigor mortis sets in, the hardening of the cells, therotting of the body, fermentation from within. In three days’ timethe body is rotten from inside. Such a rotting body when you massageit falls to pieces.Why would she want to go and massage a dead, rotten body unlessshe was looking for a live person? You see, according to yourwitnesses, from only reading, she must have seen signs of life in thelimp body as it was being taken down from the cross. She was aboutthe only woman who, with Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, had giventhe final rites to the body of Jesus. All his other disciples hadforsaken Him and fled. They were not there. So if this woman had seensigns of life, she was not going to shout, “There, He’s alive! He’salive!” – to invite a sure death.Three days later, she goes in, and she wants to anoint Him. Andwhen she reaches the sepulchre, she finds that the stone is removed.The winding sheets are inside. So, she starts to cry. I’m asking, whywas the stone removed and why were the winding sheets unwound? Be-cause for a resurrected body you won’t have to remove the stone tocome out. For the resurrected body, you don’t have to unwind the win-ding sheets to move, This is the need of this physical body. Thismortal body. Because a poet tells us, “The stone walls do not a pri-son make nor iron bars a cage,” For the soul, for the spirit, thesethings do not matter. Iron bars or walls. It’s the need of His phy-sical body. Jesus Christ, according to the Scriptures, was watchingher from wherever He was, not from heaven, but from this earth.Because this tomb, if you remember, was privately owned propertybelonging to Joseph of Arimathea. This very rich, influential dis-ciple had carved out of a rock a big, roomy chamber. Around thatchamber was his vegetable garden. Now, don’t tell me that this Jewwas so generous that he was planting vegetables five miles out oftown for other people’s sheep and goats to graze upon.Surely he must have bought his laborers quarters. Or for people wholooked after his garden, or perhaps his country home where he wentwith his family for holidays, on the weekends.Jesus is there and He watches this woman. He knows who she is and Heknows why she’s there. And He goes up to her. He finds her crying. SoHe says, “Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou?” I’m asking,doesn’t He know? Doesn’t He know? Why does He ask such a sillyquestion? I’m telling you, this is not a silly question. He’s actu-ally pulling her leg, metaphorically. She, supposing Him to be thegardener – I’m only reading you evidence as it is given. She supposedHim to be the gardener – I am asking, why does she suppose He’s a gar-dener? Do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? Do they? I say, whydoes she suppose He’s a gardener? I’m telling you, because He’s dis-guised as a gardener. Why is He disguised as a gardener? I say, be-cause He’s afraid of the Jews. Why is He afraid of the Jews? I say,because He didn’t die. And He didn’t conquer death. If He had died,and if He had conquered death, there’s no need to be afraid anymore.Why not? Because the resurrected body can’t die twice. Who says so? Isay the Bible. What does it say? It says it is ordained unto all men,once to die, and after that, the judgment. You can’t die twice.So, if He had conquered death, there would be no need to be afraid.He’s afraid, because He didn’t die, So she, supposing Him to be thegardener, says, “Sir, if you have taken Him hence, tell me where haveyou laid Him to rest?” To relax, to recuperate, not where have youburied Him. “So that I might take him away.” I alone .- one woman afrail Jewess. Imagine her carrying away a corpse of 160 pounds, atleast, not 200 like me. A muscular carpenter supposed to be a youngman in the prime of His life, at least 160 pounds. And another 100pounds’ worth of medicines around Him, John, chapter 19, verse 9.That makes Him 260.Can you imagine this frail Jewess carrying this bundle of a corpseover 260 pounds, like a bundle of straw, like a super-woman in theAmerican comics? And take Him where? Take Him home? Put Him under abed – what does she want to do with Him? Does she want to pickleHim? What does she want to do with a rotting body. I ask you?So Jesus – the joke has gone too far – says, “Mary…” The way Hesaid “Mary,” she recognized that this was Jesus. So, she wants tograb Him. I’m asking why. To bite Him? No! To pay respect. We Easternpeople do that. She wants to grab Him. So Jesus says, “Touch Me not,”I say, why not? Is He a bundle of electricity, a dynamo, that if shetouches Him she will get electrocuted? Tell me, why not? I say be-cause it hurts, You give me another reason why not, “Touch Me not forI am not yet ascended unto My Father.” Is she blind? Can’t she seethe man is standing there beside her? What does He mean by “I’m notgone up” when He is here? He said, “I am not yet ascended unto MyFather.” In the language of the Jew, in the idiom of the Jew. He’ssaying, “I am not dead yet.”The problem arises: who moved the stone? How could she get to Him;who moved the stone? And the Christians are writing books upon books.One is Frank Morrison, a rationalist lawyer, He writes a book of 192pages and he gives six hypotheses, At the end of the 192 pages, whenyou are finished, you still haven’t got the answer. Who moved thestone? And they’re writing books upon books: who moved the stone? Ican’t understand why you can’t see the very obvious. Why don’t youread your books: These gospels, you have it in black and white inyour own mother tongue. This is an anomaly that you read this bookin your own mother tongue.The Englishman in English, the Afrikaner in Afrikaans the Zulu inZulu. Every language group has got the book in their own language.And each and every one is made to understand the exact opposite ofwhat he is reading. Exact opposite. Not just merely misunderstanding.I want you to prove me wrong. I’m telling you … I’m only quotingword for word exactly as your witnesses have said it. Preserved itfor us in black and white. I’m not attributing motives to them. I’mnot saying that they are dishonest witnesses. I’m telling you. Pleaseread this book of yours once more. Remove the blinders, and read itagain. And tell me where I’m not understanding your language. YouEnglishmen, or you Afrikaners, you Zulu. You come back to me and ifyou feel that at the end of the talk. our honored visitor has notdone justice to the subject, you call me – to your Kingdom Halls orto your school hall or anywhere you want to discuss it further withme. I am prepared to come.Who moved the stone? I’m asking. It’s very simple – they’re talkingabout 20 men required. It is so huge, it needed a superman from Ame-rica to move it. One and a half to two tons. I’m telling you, pleaseread Mark and Matthew and he tells you that Joseph of Arimathea alone,put the stone into place. One man – alone. One man! If one man can putit into place, why can’t two persons remove it, I ask you?Now, all those happenings – you know that this was prophesied. Itwas ordained. And all the stories about what happened afterward -I’m telling you that Jesus Christ had given you a clear cut indicationof what was going to happen. And that’s also preserved in black andwhite in your testimony in the Gospel of St. Matthew, another of yourwitnesses, chapter 12. verses 38. 39 and 40. The Jews come again toJesus. with a new request.Now they say. “Master, we would have a sign of Thee.” We want Youto show a miracle to convince us that You are the Messiah we arewaiting for. You know, something supernatural like walking on thewater, or flying in the air like a bird. Do something, man, then wewill be convinced that You are a man of God, the Messiah we are wait-ing for.So Jesus answers them. He says, “An evil and adulterous generationseeketh after a sign. But there shall be no sign given unto it, exceptthe sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and threenights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of Man be threedays and three nights in the belly of the earth.” The only sign Hewas prepared to give them was the sign of Jonah. He has put all hiseggs in one basket. He didn’t say, “You know blind Bartimaeus, Ihealed him. You know that woman with issues who had been bleeding foryears. She touched Me and she was healed. You know, I fed five thou-sand people with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread. Yousee that fig tree. I dried it up from its very roots.” Nothing of thekind. “This is the only sign I will give you, the sign of Jonah.” I’masking, what was that sign?Well, go to the book of Jonah. I brought the book of Jonah for you -one page by God – it is only one page in the whole Bible. This is thebook of Jonah. Four short chapters. It won’t take you two minutes toread it. It’s hard to find the book because, in a thousand pages, tofind one page is difficult. But, you don’t have to go there. If youwent to Sunday school. you will remember what I’m telling you. I’mtelling you that Jonah was sent to the Ninevites. You know, GodAlmighty told him, “Go to Nineveh,” a city of 100,000 people. He wasto warn them that they must repent in sack-cloth and ashes; they musthumble themselves before the Lord. Jonah was despondent because thesematerialistic people -worldly people – “They will not listen to me.They will make a mockery of what I have to tell them.” So instead ofgoing to Nineveh, he goes to Joppa. That’s what this one-page booktells you. He went to Joppa and was taken aboard a ship – he was goingto Tarshish. You don’t have to remember the names.On the way, there’s a storm. And according to the superstitions ofthese people, anyone who runs away from his master’s command, whofails to do his duty, creates a turmoil at sea. So, they begin toquestion in the boat, who could be responsible for this storm. Jonahrealizes that as a prophet of God, he is a soldier of God. And as asoldier of God, he has no right to do things presumptuously on hisown. So he says, “Look, I am the guilty party. God Almighty is aftermy blood. He wants to kill me, so in the process He’s sinking theboat, and you innocent people will die. It will be better for you ifyou take me and you throw me overboard. Because God is really aftermy blood.”They say, “No, man, you know, you are such a good man. Perhaps youwant to commit suicide. We won’t help you to do that. We have a sys-tem of our own of discovering right from wrong,” and that is whatthey call casting lots. Like heads or tails. So, according to the sys-tem of casting lots, Jonah was found to be the guilty man. And so theytook him, and they threw him overboard.Now I’m going to ask you a question. When they threw him overboard.was he dead or was he alive? Now, before you answer. I want you tobear in mind that Jonah had volunteered. He said, “Throw me.” Andwhen a man volunteers, you don’t have to strangle him before throwing,you don’t have to spear him before throwing, you don’t have to breakhis arm or limb before throwing. You agree with me?The man had volunteered. So when they threw him overboard, whatdoes your common sense say? Was he dead or was he alive? Please, Iwant your help. Was he dead or was he alive? Alive. You get no prizefor that – it was too simple a question. And – astonishingly the Jewssay that he was alive, the Christians say he was alive and the Mus-lims say he was alive. How much nicer it would be if we would agreeon every other thing.We all agree that he was alive when he was thrown into that ragingsea. And the storm subsided. Perhaps it was a coincidence. A fishcomes and gobbles him. Dead or alive? Was he dead or was he alive?Alive? Thank you very much.From the fish’s belly, according to the book of Jonah, he cries toGod for help. Do dead men pray? Do they pray? Dead people, do theypray? No! So he was alive. Three days and three nights the fish takeshim around the ocean. Dead or alive? Alive. On the third day, walkingon the seashore, I’m asking – dead or alive? Alive. What does Jesussay? He said, “For as Jonah was.” Just like Jonah. “For as Jonah was,so shall the Son of Man be,” referring to Himself. How was Jonah -dead or alive? Alive. How was Jesus for three days and three nightsin the tomb according to the Christian belief? How was He? Dead oralive? Dead.He was dead according to our belief. In other words, He’s unlikeJonah. Can’t you see? He says, I shall be like Jonah and you are tell-ing me – there’s one thousand two hundred million Christians of theworld – that He was unlike Jonah. He said, I will be like Jonah, yousay He was unlike Jonah. If I was a Jew, I would not accept Him as myMessiah. I am told in the Qur’an that Jesus was the Messiah. I accept.He was one of the mightiest messengers of God – I accept. I believein His miraculous birth. I believe that He gave life to the dead byGod’s permission. And He healed those born blind and the leper byGod’s permission. But if I was a Jew, according to the sign that Hehas given, He failed. Jonah is alive – Jesus is dead. They are notalike. I don’t know in what language you can make them alike – thatthey are like one another. So the clever man. you know, the doctor oftheology, the professor of religion, he tells me that I don’t under-stand the Bible.Your Bible, I don’t understand. Why don’t I understand the Bible? Hesays, “You see Mr. Deedat, Jesus Christ is emphasizing the time fac-tor.” Note, He uses the word “three” four times. For Jonah was threedays and three nights. so shall the Son of Man be three days and threenights. He uses the word “three” four times.In other words, He’s emphasizing the time factor – not whether Hewas dead or alive. I’m tellinq you that there is nothing miraculousin a time factor, Whether the man was dead for three minutes or threehours or three weeks, that’s not a miracle.The miracle, if there is one at all, is that you expect a man to bedead and he’s not dead. When Jonah was thrown into the sea, we expecthim to die. He didn’t die, so it’s a miracle. A fish comes and gobbleshim – he ought to die. He didn’t die, so it’s a miracle. Three daysand three nights of suffocation and heat in the whale’s belly, Heought to die: he didn’t die. It’s a miracle, it’s a miracle becauseyou expect a man to die and he didn’t die.When you expect a man to die, and if he dies, what’s so miraculousabout that? I ask you, what’s miraculous about that? If a gunman tooka gun and fired six shots into the heart of a man and he dies, is thata miracle? No. But if he laughs it off. if he is still alive and walk-ing with us and if, after the six shots tear his heart to pieces, helaughs: ha ha ha ha — he’s alive. So we say it’s a miracle. Can’tyou see? The miracle is when we expect a man to die and he doesn’tdie. When the man who is expected to die, dies, it’s no miracle.We expect Jesus also to die. For what He had been through, if Hedied, there is no miracle. There’s no sign. If He didn’t die, it’s amiracle – can’t you see? So He says, “No, no. It is the time factor.”Drowning men clutch at straws – drowning women do the same. He says,”No. it’s the time factor.” I say, did He fulfill that? He says, “Ofcourse, He fulfilled that.” I say, how did He fulfill it? Look, it’svery easy to make statements. HOW did He fulfill it? I say, watch.When was He crucified, I ask you? The whole Christian world says onGood Friday. Britain, France, Germany. America,Lesotho. Zambia – in South Africa we have a public holiday – everyChristian nation commemorates Good Friday. I am asking, what makesGood Friday good?So the Christian says, “Christ died for our sins, That makes itgood.” So He was crucified on the Good Friday. He says, yes. Yes. Isay, when was He crucified – morning or afternoon? So the Christiansays in the afternoon. How long was He on the cross? Some say threehours, some say six hours. I say, I am not going to argue with you.Whatever you say, I accept. You know, when we read the Scriptures,they tell us that when they wanted to crucify Jesus, they were in ahurry. And they were in such a hurry that Josh tells us in his book,The Resurrection Factor, that within some 12 hours, there were sixseparate trials. Six trials He went through.These things only happen in films. These sort of things – six trialsin 12 hours from midnight to the next morning and on, only take placeon films. But I believe whatever you tell me. Whatever you tell me, Iaccept. So the Jews were in a hurry to put Him up on the cross. Do youknow why? Because of the general public. Jesus was a Jew. The generalpublic loved Him. The man had healed the blind and the lepers and thesick and had raised the dead. He had fed so many thousands of peoplewith bread and fish. He was a hero, and if they discovered – the ge-neral public – that their hero’s life was in danger, there would havebeen a riot.So, they had a midnight trial. Early in the morning they took Him toPilate. Pilate says, “He is not my kettle of fish – take Him to Herod.”Herod says, “I’m not interested – take Him back to Pilate. And hurry,hurry, hurry.” And they held six trials within 12 hours. Six. As ifthey had nothing else to do, but I believe what you tell me.They succeeded in putting Him up on the cross, according to yourwitnesses. According to your witnesses. But as much as they were in ahurry to put Him up, they were in a hurry to bring Him down. You knowwhy? Because at sunset on Friday, at six o’clock, the Sabbath starts.You see, the Jews count the days, night and day, night and day. WeMuslims count our days, night and day, night and day. Not day and night.We count night and day. Six o’clock, our day begins in the evening.So, before sunset, the body must come down because they were told inthe book of Deuteronomy that they must see to it that nobody is hangingon the tree on the Sabbath day. “That thy land be not defiled which theLord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.” So quickly, quickly, theybrought the body down and they gave Him a burial bath, and they put ahundred pounds of medicine around Him. And they put Him into thesepulchre. Not a grave – a sepulchre. A big, roomy chamber above ground.So it’s already evening. From three o’clock in the afternoon, forwhatever you do, the details are given in Josh’s book. Burial bathsnormally take more than an hour. You read the details about how the Jewgive a burial bath to the dead. That takes more than an hour itself. Butlet’s say they succeeded in doing all these things in a hurry, hurry. Youknow they were in a hurry. Six trials in 12 hours. Now they put Him intothe sepulchre.By the time they put Him in, it’s already evening. So watch – watchmy fingers. Friday night He’s supposed to be in the grave. Watch myfinger. Saturday day, He still is supposed to be in the grave. Am Iright? Saturday night, He still is supposed to be in the grave. ButSunday morning, the first day of the week, when Mary Magdalene goes tothe tomb, the tomb was empty.That’s what your witnesses say. I am asking – how many days and howmany nights? You remember, I said, supposed, supposed, supposed…You know why? Because the Bible doesn’t say actually when He came out.He could have come out Friday night. The Bible doesn’t say how He came.So, Friday night, Saturday day, Saturday night. I’m asking, how manydays and how many nights? Please, if you can see, if your eyes are notdefective, tell me how many? How many do you see? Right! Two nights anda day. Look at this. Is it the same as He said, for as Jonah was threedays and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be three days and threenights? Three and three. Look at this: two and one. Please tell me nowit means the same thing.I want to know what you are reading. I want to know what you arereading in your own book! The man is telling you that what is going tohappen will be like Jonah. And the sign of Jonah is a miracle. And theonly miracle you can attribute to this man, Jonah, is that we expectedhim to die and he didn’t die. Jesus – we expect Him also to die. If Hedied, it is not a sign. If He didn’t die, it is a sign.Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Can you see, thepeople have been programmed. We all get programmed from childhood. WhenI went to America, and spoke at the University in San Francisco, Isaid you people are brainwashed. I told them, “You are brainwashed.” Ofcourse, I could afford to talk to them – the American will take it. Heis the almighty. You know, great guy. He can take it. So I said, “Youpeople are brainwashed.” So one American, a professor, interjected,”No, not brainwashed – programmed.” I said, “I beg your pardon – pro-grammed.” So, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I hope, by the timethis meeting is over, you will be re-programmed into reading the bookas it is, and not as you are made to understand.Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.# Josh McDowellLadies and gentlemen, good afternoon. Mr. Deedat, and the wonderfulpeople of this city, and this country of South Africa, I am thankfulfor the opportunity to be a part of this symposium on Islam and Christi-anity’s view of the crucifixion and the resurrection.In preparation for this, I didn’t realize that I would be dealingwith so many different theories on the crucifixion from the Islamicviewpoint. I found out, first of all, that the majority of the Muslimsthroughout the world hold to the substitutionary theory. That in Surahnumber 4, in the Qur’an, a substitute, another person, was placed inChrist’s position on the cross that Jesus was removed and taken toheaven.In other words, it was someone else. But then, I found such a diverseopinion among Muslims. Some Muslim writers say that it was a discipleof Jesus who was placed on the cross in His stead. Another Muslim wri-ter, Tabari, quoting Ibn Ishaq, said it was a man by the name of Sargus,or Sergius, who was placed on the cross. Another Muslim writer by thename of Baidawi, said it was a Jew named Titanus who was placed on thecross. Another, Ath-Tha-‘labi, says it was a Jew named Fal Tayanus, whowas placed on the cross. And still another Muslim writer. Wahb ibnMunabbah, said it was a Rabbi of the Jews, Ashyu, who was placed on thecross.Then, others feeling that it might be a little unfair to put an inno-cent man there, say, well, it must be Judas Iscariot who was placed onthe cross. Now, Mr. Deedat might be able to correct me, but I do notbelieve there is any evidence whatsoever in the Qur’an for that. Thereare in some of the sects. earlier than Islam, references to that. But Ialways wondered, why did God have to have a substitute? Why couldn’t Hehave simply taken Jesus then?Others will say – and this is not what the majority of Muslims believe- that Jesus died a natural death some years after the crucifixion andthe alleged resurrection. In other words, “Hazrat Isa,” Jesus is dead!This is a more recent development in Islam. And I’m always wary ofrecent developments.It was started mainly by a man by the name of Venturini, who saidJesus really didn’t die on the cross – He just swooned or passed out,then was put into a tomb and resuscitated. This is also the theme ofthe Ahmadiyas, a radical sect of Islam. One of their main doctrines,established by their founder and allegedly their prophet, Mirza GhulamAhmad, it is a part of the doctrine of Qadianism.Some will say to be crucified means to die. Therefore, Jesus wasn’tcrucified because He did not die on the cross. I’m not quite sure howthey got that definition. What I need to do is this: present the factsto you, as I have been able to document them in my books, and then letyou, as fair minded, intelligent people, make up your minds. The back-ground for the points I’m going to make is that when I was in the Uni-versity, I wanted to write a book against Christianity. I wanted torefute it intellectually. The last thing I wanted to do was become aChristian. But after two years of research and spending a lot of moneyand time, I discovered facts – not only facts that God has stated inHis Holy Word, the Bible, but facts that are documented in sources inhistory. Men and women, these are some of the facts that I found as Itried to refute Christianity and I couldn’t.The first fact I found is that Jesus was not afraid to die. In fact,He predicted His own death and resurrection. He said, “Behold, we aregoing up to Jerusalem.” He said to His disciples, “The Son of Man isgoing to be delivered up to the death. And they will deliver Him to theGentiles to mock and to whip and to crucify Him. And on the third day Hewill be raised up” (paraphrased from Matthew 17:22-23).In another place He began to teach them that He had discovered manythings. And then He said He’d be rejected by the elders and the chiefpriests and the scribes, He would be killed, and He added that afterthree days, He was to rise again (Matthew 20:18, 19).In Matthew 17, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is going to bedelivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and He will beraised again on the third day.”The second thing I learned as I studied the life of Jesus Christ isthat Jesus was willing to die. In Matthew 26, He said, “My Father, if itis possible, let this Cup pass from Me.” But what a lot of people leaveout is the context of what Jesus said. He said, “Yet not as I will, butas Thou wilt, Father” (Matthew 26:39).Now Jesus did not hide Himself. He is very clear about where He is. Itsays in John 18 that He went to the place where they usually found Him.He didn’t want to hide from the authorities. He knew what was going tohappen. In John 18, verse 4, it says, “Jesus therefore. knowing all thethings that were going to come upon Him.” He knew it! And He was readyfor it. In Matthew Jesus says, “Don’t you understand, I could call on twelvelegions of angels to protect Me?” But He said, “I want Your will. Father.”and God answered His prayer and let Him fulfill “the will of the Father.”Jesus said in John 10: “The Father loves Me because I lay down My lifethat I may take it up again. No one has taken it away from Me, but Ilay it down on My own initiative.” You have to remember – Jesus beingthe God-Man, came as God the Son, the eternal Word, to take the sinsof the world upon Himself. The Holy Bible (I Corinthians 5:21) says thatHe, God, made Jesus sin for us, and, if you can, imagine the agony thatthe eternal Word, the Son, was going through at that time.The third fact that I learned is that the Jews were not guilty of thecrucifixion of Jesus Christ. I was very surprised. Mr. Deedat, that youneeded to be the defender of the Jews. There are Muslims and Christiansthat have gotten that distorted all through history. Jesus said in Matthew20. verses 18 and 19, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and they willcondemn Me to death. and will deliver Me over to the Gentiles, to mockand whip and crucify Me.” Jesus said, “I lay down My life.” If anyonewas guilty, Jesus was. He said, “I have the power to lay it down, Ihave the power to take it up.”Also, Mr. Deedat, I feel that both you and I are responsible, becausethe Bible says,”For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”(Romans 3:23). It was our sins that drove Jesus Christ to the cross.The fourth fact that I learned is that the Christians are called toan intelligent. intellectual faith – not a blind faith. I was quitesurprised when I read in the little booklet, What Was the Sign ofJonah? by Mr. Ahmed Deedat, that over one thousand million Christianstoday blindly accept that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. I’m a littleconfused, because really, Mr. Deedat, you read from the Qur’an and yousaid you accept it, you don’t need facts, you don’t need any evidence.You simply accept it and then you’re saying that Christians, becausethey accept what God, Yahweh, has revealed through the Holy Bible, thatJesus is the Christ, that because we accept that, we do it blindly. I’mamazed, because in the Muslim book, the Qur’an, it states that one ofthe titles given to Jesus is “al-Masih.” I believe it is referred to 11times that way. The Muslim translator of the Qur’an into English, YusufAli, translates the Arabic here as “Christ” in the English translation.So, why are we accused of being blind in accepting Jesus as the Christ?In my country, one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived – theman who made the university of Harvard famous – was Dr. SimonGreenleaf. He became a Christian through trying to refute Jesus Christas the Eternal Word and the resurrection. Finally, after trying to doit, he came to the conclusion that the resurrection of Jesus Christ isone of the best established events of history, according to the laws oflegal evidence administered in the courts of justice.C.S. Lewis, the literary genius of our age, was the professor ofmedieval and renaissance literature at Oxford. He was a giant in hisfield. No one could question his intellectual capabilities. He becamea believer in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord when he tried torefute the reliability of the New Testament and he couldn’t. And hesaid, “I was one of the most reluctant converts, but I was brought toJesus Christ because of my mind.”Lord Caldecote, the Lord Chief Justice of England, a man that heldthe highest offices that anyone could hold in the legal systems ofEngland, said, ” … as often as I have tried to examine the evidencefor Christianity, I have come to believe it as a fact beyond dispute.”Thomas Arnold was the headmaster of a major varsity and universityfor 14 years. He is an historian and the author of the famous three-volume series, the History of Rome. He said, “I know of no one fact inthe history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidencethan the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”Dr. Werner von Braun, the German scientist – the man who immigratedto my country – was one of the creators of the American Space Program.He said he never really became a scientist until he came to know JesusChrist personally as Savior and God.The fifth fact that I discovered was the historical accuracy of theChristian Bible. The Christian New Testament is exceptional in itsreliability and trustworthiness and survival down through history. Itis unrivaled in manuscript authority. A manuscript is a hand-writtencopy over against a printed copy. Men and women, of the Christian NewTestament alone, there are more than 24,000 manuscripts. Not versionsof the Bible, Mr. Deedat, manuscript copies. Men and women, the numbertwo book in all of history in manuscript authority and literature, isHomer’s Iliad, with 643. The number two book in the whole of historyin manuscript authority.Then, Sir Frederick Kenyon was a man who was second to no one in theability and the training to make authoritative statements about manu-scripts of literature in history. The former curator and director ofthe British Museum, he said, “The last foundation for any doubt thatthe Scriptures have come down to us as they were written now has beenremoved. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the booksof the New Testament may now be regarded as finally established.”The point: there are some people who do not have an historical per-spective of literature, who try to make an issue out of the fact thatthe writers of the four accounts of the gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke andJohn, never signed their names. Please, men and women, we need to goback through history and see how they did it then.First of all, the manuscripts were so well-accepted as being authori-tative, with everyone knowing who wrote them, they did not need namesplaced on them. You might say it was the writers’ way of not distrac-ting from the purpose of making Jesus Christ the central issue. Also,the work of these authors, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, went throughthe apostolic age. They went through the test of the apostolic periodof the first century to confirm their accuracy, authenticity and reli-ability. Other people, through limited reading and absence of any typeof research, say that the documents of Matthew, Mark, Luke and Johnare hearsay because the writers were not eyewitnesses of the eventssurrounding the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.The people who say that will often appeal to Mark 14:50. They saythat within two minutes they could dismiss the argument because Jesus’followers all left Him and fled. So therefore, everything was hearsay.Men and women. this line of reasoning ignores common sense in thefacts of the case. For example, read just the next four verses. Itsays this: “And Peter followed Him.” You see, they left Him in a group,but they came back individually – immediately, Mr. Deedat.Verse 4 says: “And Peter followed Him at a distance.” He went rightinto the courtyard of the high priest. And he was sitting there withthe officer. Can you imagine? With the officers, and warming himself.In Mark 14, it says, “And Peter was below, in the courtyard.” Men andwomen, if you have studied the Scriptures, you’ll realize that Mark,in his gospel, was writing down all the eyewitness accounts of Peter.Peter was right there. Then we go to John 18, verse 15: “And SimonPeter was following Jesus, and so was another disciple. Now thatdisciple was known to the high priest and entered with Jesus into thecourt of the high priest.” John 19:26, “When Jesus therefore saw Hismother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to Hismother, ‘Woman, behold your son.’ ” They were eyewitnesses. They werethere.About being permissible in a court of law. In most legal situations,you have what can be referred to as an ancient document rule. Now, youhave to go to law to substantiate these things. Dr. John WarwickMontgomery is a lawyer and dean of the Simon Greenleaf School of Law,and a lecturer at the International School of Theology and Law inStrasbourg, France.He said that the application of the ancient document rule to thedocuments of the New Testament (especially the four gospels) – this isa head of a law school speaking – “Applied to the gospel records, andreinforced by responsible lower (textual) criticism, this rule wouldestablish competency in any court of law.”The greatest eyewitness testimony is not found in the gospels. It isfound in I Corinthians, the epistle by the apostle Paul, chapter 15,and was written in A.D. 55 to 56. I have yet to find a reputable scho-lar who would deny that. Paul says (now it’s 20 years earlier, rightafter his conversion – he had met with the leaders. He had met withJames, the brother of Jesus in Jerusalem), that the tradition waspassed on to him that there were over 500 eyewitnesses of the resur-rection. If you take that into a court of law, give each eyewitnessjust six minutes, that would make 3,000 minutes of eyewitness testi-mony, or 50 hours of eyewitness testimony.However, that’s not the key point here. That was the tradition handeddown to him, what he had examined personally. But Paul says then, themajority of them are still alive right now. Not when the tradition waspassed down, but right now. Men and women, Paul was saying, “If youdon’t believe me, ask them.”Also, many people overlook the fact that when the message of JesusChrist was presented by the apostles and disciples, and the NewTestament was shared, present in the audience were hostile and antago-nistic witnesses. If they would have dared to depart from the truth ofwhat was said, there were hostile witnesses to correct them immediate-ly. In a court of law that is referred to as the principle of cross-examination. They did not dare to depart from the truth. Also, apartfrom the Bible, you have several extra biblical secular sources.One, a man by the name of Polycarp, was a disciple of the apostleJohn. He writes in his works. going back almost 2.000 years ago, “Sofirm is the ground upon which these gospels rest, that even the here-tics themselves would not undermine it.” They had to start from whatwas presented and then develop their own heresy. Because even then,they could not say, Jesus didn’t say that. Jesus didn’t do that then…they couldn’t do that. So, they had to start with what He said, anddevelop their own heresy.The conclusion of many scholars is a tremendous confidence in theChristian Bible. Mr. Millar Burrows was on the staff of Yale Univer-sity. one of the most prestigious universities in my country. He said.”There is an increase of confidence in the accurate transmission ofthe text of the New Testament itself.” Dr. Howard Vox, a researcherand archaeologist, said, “From the standpoint of literary evidence,the only logical conclusion is in the case where the reliability ofthe New Testament is infinitely stronger than any other record ofantiquity.”The sixth fact that I discovered was that Christ was crucified. Whatdoes the historical, reliable record show? It is clear, not only fromthe Christian’s biblical historical record, but also from secular sour-ces, which are documented in the back of my book, Evidence That Demandsa Verdict, that He not only predicted His death by crucifixion, butthat He was actually crucified. Jesus said that He would be whippedand delivered over to be crucified. And then. in John 19:17. 18, “Theytook Jesus therefore, and He went out, bearing His own cross, to theplace called the Place of a Skull…. There they crucified Him, andwith Him two other men, one on either side, and Jesus in between.”Let’s follow through what actually happened. First of all, it pointsout that Jesus was whipped by the Romans. What did that mean? The Ro-mans would strip a person down to the waist and would tie him in thecourtyard. Then they would take a whip that had a handle about a footand a half long. At the end of the handle, it had four leather thongswith heavy, jagged bones or balls of lead with jagged edges, woundinto the end of the straps. A minimum of five. They would be differentlengths. The Romans would bring the whip down over the back of theindividual and all the balls of lead or bone would hit the body at thesame time. and they they would yank the whip down. The Jews would onlypermit 40 lashes. So they never did more than 39 so they wouldn’tbreak the law if they miscounted. The Romans could do as many as theywanted. So, when the Romans whipped a Jew, they did 41 or more out ofspite to the Jews. And so he had probably at least 41, if not more,lashes.There are several medical authorities that have done research oncrucifixion. One is a Dr. Barbet, in France, and another is Dr. C.Truman Davis, in the state of Arizona in my country. He is a medicaldoctor who has done meticulous study of the crucifixion from a medicalperspective. Here he gives the effect of the Roman flogging:”The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and againacross (a person’s) shoulders, back and legs. At first, the heavythongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, theycut deeper into the subcutalleous tissues, producing first an oozingof blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spur-ting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. Thesmall balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises, which theothers cut wide open. Finally, the skin of the back is hanging in longribbons, and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleed-ing tissue.”Other sources I have documented said that sometimes the back isliterally opened up to the bowels within. Many people would die justfrom the whipping.After the whipping they took Jesus out to the execution area anddrove spikes into His wrists and His feet. It says that late thatFriday afternoon they broke the legs of the two thieves hanging withJesus, but they did not break His legs. Now, why did they break some-one’s legs? When you are prostrate on the cross, or hanging there,they bent the legs up underneath and drove the spike through here.When you died by crucifixion, often what would happen is you would diefrom your own air. The pectoral muscles would be affected and you couldnot let your air out. You could take it in, but could not let it out.And so, you’d hang there and suffocate, you would push up on yourlegs to let the air out, and then come down to take it in. When theywanted to bring about the death immediately, they broke their legs andthey couldn’t push up, and they would die. Jesus’ legs were not broken.As the Holy God, revealing His Holy Word in the Bible, points out,Jesus had died. Men and women, if they had broken His legs, He wouldnot have been our Messiah. He would not have been the Eternal Word,because God, Yahweh in the Old Testament, prophesies in Psalms thatHis legs would not be broken. His bones would not be broken. Men andwomen, He was fulfilling what God, Yahweh, had already revealed wouldtake place.The next fact that I discovered was that Christ was dead. That’s theseventh fact that I discovered, Men and women, in John 19:30, Jesuswilled Himself to die, That’s why He didn’t take so long, He came todie. He said, “I lay My life down.” And in John 19, He said, “It isfinished,” and He bowed His head and He gave up the Spirit, He willedHimself to die, Now, in John 19, verse 34 (Mr. Deedat, in his booklet,has referred to it as ‘Evidence That Jesus Was Not Dead’) you havereference to the blood and water.He was on the cross and they’d already acknowledged Him being dead,but they thought they’d give a parting shot, as you would say, Theytook a spear, and thrust it into His side. Eyewitness accounts saidblood and water came out separated, Mr. Deedat, in his book, appealedto this phenomenon as evidence that Christ was still alive, He supportsthis in his writing, by an appeal to an article in the Thinkers Digest1949, by an anesthesiologist. I was able to acquire medical researchby various people in this area.I have time to share just two of the findings. First, from a scho-lastic viewpoint: many medical and university or varsity librariesthat once carried this journal, no longer do so. It is considered bymany in the medical field to be not only out of date, but behind themedical times.Second, from a medical viewpoint: A wound of the type inflicted onJesus, if the person were still alive, would not bleed out the woundopening, but bleed into the chest cavity, causing an internal hemorrh-age. At the aperture of the wound, the blood would be barely oozingfrom the opening, For a spear to form a perfect channel that wouldallow the blood and serum to flow out the spear wound is next to im-possible. The massive internal damage done to a person under cruci-fixion, and then being speared in the heart area, would cause deathalmost immediately, not even including what happens with the detailsof a Jew’s burial.At the State of Massachusetts General Hospital, over a period ofyears, they did research on people who died of a ruptured heart.Normally, the heart had 20 cc’s of pericardial fluid. When a persondies of a ruptured heart, there is more than 500 cc’s of pericardialfluid, And it would come out in the form of a fluid and clotted blood.Perhaps this is what was viewed at that time.The Jewish burial would have been a final death blow. Mr. Deedat saysin his book, page 9, in “What Was the Sign of Jonah”? that they gavethe Jewish burial bath, plastered him with 100 pounds of aloe andmyrrh. Now, going through whipping, where the back is almost laid open,having your arms and feet pierced, being put on a cross, having a spearthrust in your side, being taken down and then plastered with 100-somepounds of spices of cement consistency – it would call for a greatermiracle than the resurrection to live through that,Then, the severe discipline of the Romans. Pilate was a littleamazed, and I would have been too, that Christ had already been dead,or that they had come and asked for the body, So, he called a centurionin. And he said, “I want you to go and confirm to me that Jesus isdead.” Now men and women, this centurion was not a fool. He was notabout ready to leave his wife a widow.The centurion would always check with four different executioners.That was Roman law. There had to be four executioners. They did thatso in case one man was a little lax, the other one would catch him init, And you would never have all four lax in signing the death warrant.Discipline was severe with the Romans.For example, when the angel let Peter out of jail in Acts 12 in theNew Testament, Herod called in the guard and executed them all – justfor letting one man out of jail. In Acts 16 in the Christian New Testa-ment, the doors had been opened up in the jail for Paul and Silas,their chains had been loosened, and the moment the guard saw they werefreed, he pulled out his own sword to execute himself. And Paul said,”Wait a minute!” You see, that guard knew what would happen, He wouldrather die by his own sword, than be executed by the Romans.Then Christ was dead. Flavius Josephus, the Jewish historian, recordsthat when he went into Jerusalem in A.D. 70 when Titus was destroyingit, he saw three of his friends being crucified. They had just been putup there. They had been whipped and everything. He went to the com-mander of the guard and he said, “Please release them.” Now, you haveto understand, Flavius was the name given to Josephus by the RomanEmperor who had brought him into his own family. That’s why he hadinfluence as a Jew. And you know, immediately, the Roman guard captaintook the three men down from the cross and still, men and women, twoof the three died. They’d just been put up there and they were removedquickly. Crucifixion was that cruel.The Jews knew that Jesus was dead. In Matthew 27 they went to theRoman leader and said, “Sir, we remember that when He was still alive….” In other words, what is He now? Dead! “When He was still aliveHe said, ‘After three days I am to rise again.’ “I believe Mr. Deedathas his books saying that the Jews realized they’d made a mistake. Hereally wasn’t dead, so they thought they wouldn’t make a second mis-take, so they go and get a guard unit put there. Well, the Jews them-selves said He was already dead. “We just want to make sure no onetakes His body so there won’t be any deception.” The Jews have beenaccused of a lot of things, but very seldom have they ever been accusedof stupidity. They knew He was dead.The next fact I discovered was the burial procedure of the Jews. Somepeople say they were hurrying because of the Sabbath coming, and theyhad to carry Him back. Men and women, I checked this out in detail. AndI documented in my Resurrection Factor book that the burial procedurewas so important they could even do it on the Sabbath. They didn’t haveto worry about the Sabbath coming up. They didn’t want the body to hangon the cross once the Sabbath began, but they could take their timeburying Him. They would put spices around the body – in this case, 100pounds of aromatic spices – along with a gummy, cement substance.They would stretch the body out or straighten it out. They’d take apiece of linen cloth 30 centimeters wide. They would start to wrap thebody from the feet. In between the folds, they put the cement consist-ency and the spices. They wrapped the body to the armpits, put the armsdown, started below the fingers again, wrapped to the neck, and put aseparate piece around the head. In this situation, I would estimate anencasement of 117 to 120 pounds.The next fact that I discovered is that they took extreme securityprecautions at the tomb of Jesus Christ. One, it says that they rolledlarge stone against the tomb. Mark says the stone was extremely large.One historical reference going back to the first century says that 20men could not move the stone. Now. I think it was exaggerated a littlebit there. But he was making a point about the size of the stone. Twoengineering professors. after they heard me speak on the stone, wentto Israel. As non-Christian engineering professors, they calculatedthe size stone needed to roll against a four-and-a-half to five-footdoorway of the Jewish tombs. They wrote me a well-documented letter,and said it would have to have a minimum weight of one and a half totwo tons.Mr. Deedat, in his books, makes an issue that one man, or two at themost, rolled the stone against the entrance. Therefore, one or two mencould roll it back. It says Joseph of Arimathea rolled the stoneagainst the entrance. Don’t force on the Bible or the Qur’an anythingyou would not force in conversation today. For example: when I came tothe stadium the other day to look it over. I said to one of the peoplethat brought me here, “How did all these chairs get here?” He said, “Mr.Deedat brought them.” Mr. Deedat, did you bring all 700 of thesechairs personally, yourself? No! They were brought by many people. Icould go away from here saying Mr. Deedat put on this symposium. But Ithink there were some others that helped make all the arrangements.History says Hitler invaded France. Now, maybe he would have triedit in France alone, but I don’t think he would try it in South Africa alone.There could have been a number of people that helped Joseph of Arima-thea. Plus, you find when you go back and research it out that thetombs had a trough going up the side. They placed the stone there. Theyhad a block. Then, men and women, my seven-year-old daughter could rollit, because you simply pull up the block, letting the stone roll downthe front and lodge itself against the entrance of the tomb.Then, a security guard was put there. The Jews wanted one. They wentto the Romans and said, give us a guard unit. The Greek word waskustodia. Men and women, a kustodia was a 16-man security unit. Eachman was trained to protect six square feet of ground. The 16 men,according to Roman history, were supposed to be able to protect 6square yards against an entire battalion and hold it. Each guard hadfour weapons on his body. He was a fighting machine, almost the sameas was true of the Temple Police.Next, a Roman seal was placed on the tomb with a Roman insignia.That seal stood for the power and the authority of the Roman Empire.The body of Christ was encased with 100 and some pounds of cement andaromatic spices. A one-and-a-half to two-ton stone was rolled againstthe entrance: a 16-man security unit was placed there, and a Romanseal. But something happened. It’s a matter of historical record:after three days, the tomb was empty.I don’t have to debate that. Mr. Deedat agrees the tomb was empty.So, I won’t waste any time here.The sign of Jonah – I’m so glad you brought that up. The sign ofJonah – won’t take too much time there because I don’t think it’snecessary in this sense. Whenever you study something, you study itin the language and the culture of that day. Now, you go back to theJewish language, and the Jewish culture of that day. Not today – notSouth African, not Indian, not American. The Jewish-Israelite cultureof that day.Let’s see what three days and three nights mean. In Esther, chapter4, in the Old Testament of the Christian Jewish Bible, it says therewas a fast for three days and three nights. But then. it went on, andit says they completed the fast on the third day. You see. in Jewishlanguage, “after three days and three nights,” meant “to the third day”or “on the third day.” Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 He would be buriedfor three days and three nights.In Matthew 20, Jesus said He would be raised up on the third day -not after the third day. The Jews came to Jesus, and they said inMatthew 27, verse 63, “Sir…that deceiver said ‘After three days I amto rise again.'” So, they asked for a Roman guard. Now watch the langu-age here. “Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure untilthe third day,” not after the third day. They knew what Jesus said,three days and three nights, meant until the third day, “lest Hisdisciples come and steal Him away.”Friday before six o’clock they had three hours to bury Him. It tookless than an hour. The Jewish reckoning of time in the Jewish Talmudand the Babylonian Jerusalem Talmud (the commentaries of the Jews),said any part, an “onan” – any part of the day is considered a fullday. On Friday before six o’clock by Jewish reckoning, any minute wasone day and one night. From Friday night at six o’clock to Saturday atsix o’clock, was another day and another night.Men and women, from Jewish reckoning – not ours – any moment aftersix o’clock Saturday night is another day, another night. We do thesame thing in my country. If my son was born one minute before midnighton December the 31st, on my income taxes to my government, I couldtreat my son with the same time principle as having been born at anytime during that one full year – 365 days and 365 nights.When the Roman guards failed in their duty, they were automaticallyexecuted. One way they were executed was they were stripped of theirclothes and burned alive in a fire started with their own clothes. Theseal was broken. Men and women, when that seal was broken, the securityforces were thrown into finding that man or men, and when they werefound, anyone breaking that seal was condemned to crucifixion upsidedown.The stone was removed, men and women, and I’ll ask Mr. Deedat tocheck it out carefully. The revealed Word of God in the Christian NewTestament, in the original Greek (as the Qur’an is in Arabic, the NewTestament is in Greek), points out that a one-and-a-half- to two-tonstone was rolled up a slope, away from not just the entrance, but awayfrom the entire tomb, looking like it had been picked up and carriedaway. Now, if they wanted to tip-toe in, move the stone over, and helpJesus out, why all the efforts to move a one-and a-half to two-tonstone up away from the entire sepulchre? That guard unit would havehad to have been sleeping with cotton in their ears and with earmuffson not to have heard that one.Then, Mary went to the tomb in John 20. Mr. Deedat says that she wentthere to anoint the body and that the word “anoint” means “to massage.”Well, let me tell you, if that’s true – it’s not – but if it were true,and that’s the way the Muslims do it, it would have killed Jesus. If Iwent through crucifixion, had my hands and feet pierced, my back laidopen to the bowels, 100 and some pounds put around me, I wouldn’t wantanyone to massage me. The word “anoint” means “consecrated.” As Mr.Deedat brought out in his book, the priests and kings were anointedwhen being consecrated to their office. When He said, “Touch Me not,”Mr. Deedat says it means, “I am hurting – don’t touch Me.” Well, readthe next phrase, Mr. Deedat. It says, “Do not touch Me, because Ihaven’t yet ascended to the Father.”That’s why they’re not to touch Him because “I haven’t ascended tothe Father.” And then He says, “Now, go tell My disciples I am ascen-ding to the Father.” A little bit later, He says, “You can touch Me.Grab My feet.” Why did He do that? Oh, men and women, this is one ofthe most beautiful things. In the Old Testament, at the tabernacle,the Jewish high priest would take the sacrifice into the Holy ofHolies. And the people would wait outside, because they knew if Goddid not accept their sacrifice, the priest would be struck dead.They would wait for the high priest to come back. And when the highpriest walked back out, everybody shouted with joy! Because they said,”God has accepted our sacrifice” Jesus said, “Don’t touch Me … I’venot ascended to the Father.” Jesus, between that time and when theothers grabbed hold of Him and touched Him, ascended to God the Father,presented Himself as a sacrifice, and, ladies and gentlemen, if Jesushad not come back, if He had not permitted the others to touch Him, itwould have meant His sacrifice had not been accepted. But I thank GodHe came back and said, “Touch Me”. It’s been accepted.As for the spiritual physical body of Jesus Christ, I think, Mr.Deedat, you need to first study our Scriptures. I think you need toread just as I did to study your scriptures. You need to read I Corin-thians 15:44, 51. The explanation of the glorified, imperishable body.It was a spiritual body, and yet, it had substance. He could walkthrough a door; He could appear in their presence. He didn’t need food,but He took food. Otherwise, they would have said, “You’re merely aspirit.” No, He had what the Bible called the resurrected, glorified,incorruptible body. And if I were in that room and I knew I’d seen Himcrucified, buried and everything else, and all of a sudden, with thedoors locked, He appeared in the midst of the group, I think I’d be alittle frightened, too. Men and women, Jesus Christ is raised from thedead! Thank you.* REBUTTALS# Ahmed DeedatMr. Chairman, and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The crux of theproblem – the clear-cut statement by Jesus Christ, is the mistake thatthe disciples were making in thinking that He had come back from thedead. By assuring them that “a spirit has no flesh and bones, as yousee Me have.” This is King’s English, basic English. And one does notneed a dictionary or a lawyer to explain to you what it implies.Throughout the length and breadth of the 27 books of the NewTestament, there is not a single statement made by Jesus Christ that”I was dead, and I have come back from the dead.” The Christian hasbeen belaboring the word resurrection. Again and again, by repetition,it is conveyed that it is proving a fact. You keep on seeing the man,the man’s eating food, as though He was resurrected. He appears in theupper room – He was resurrected. Jesus Christ never uttered that wordthat “I have come back from the dead,” in the 27 books of the NewTestament, not once.He was there with them for 40 days. And He never uttered thatstatement. He is proving again and again that He was that same Jesus,the one who had escaped death, so to say, by the skin of His teeth.Because He was ever in disguise. He never showed Himself openly to theJews. He had given them a sign. “No sign shall be given unto it exceptthe sign of Jonah.” No sign, but this. And He never went back to themto the temple of Jerusalem, to tell them, “Here I am.” Not once. He wasever in hiding. Now, we will not belabor the things that have passed.The points were, that Jesus was not reluctant to die. He had actuallycome for this purpose. Now, my reading of the Scriptures tells me thatnot only was He reluctant, but He was preparing for a show-down withthe Jews. You see, at the last Supper, He raises the problem of de-fense, telling His disciples, “As you remember, when I sent you out onyour mission of preaching and healing, I told you that you were not tocarry anything with you. No purse, no sticks. No staff. Did you lackanything?”And they said “No, we lacked nothing.” But now, I tell you, He tellsthem, “Those of you who have no swords must sell their garments andbuy them.” You must sell your garments and buy swords. I’m asking you,what do you do with swords? You peel apples? Or you cut people’sthroats? What do you do with swords? So one of them said, “Master, wehave two already.” And He said, “That is enough.”And He takes His disciples – 11 of them. Judas had already gone tobetray Him. Eleven disciples and Himself, and they walk to Gethsemane.And at Gethsemane – read the book, read your gospels – and it’ll tellyou that Jesus put eight men at the gate. I’m asking you, why shouldHe go to Gethsemane in the first place? And why put eight at the gate,telling them, “Tarry ye here, and watch with Me.”He means, stop here, and keep guard. Guarding what? What was thereto guard in Gethsemane? A courtyard, olive press, empty place. Whatwere they, the disciples, to guard five miles out of town at Gethse-mane? Then He takes with Him, Peter, and the two sons of Zebedee. Atleast two of them had swords. And He makes an inner line of defenseand He tells them, “Tarry ye here, sit ye here, and watch with Me.While I go and pray yonder… I alone go and pray beyond.” I’m askingyou, why did He go to Gethsemane? Why did He go there – to pray?Couldn’t He have prayed in that upper room, while there at the LastSupper? Couldn’t He have gone to the temple of Jerusalem, a stone’sthrow from where they were? Why go five miles out of town? And why puteight at the gate? And why make an inner line of defense?And He goes a little farther, and falls on His face, and He prays toGod. “Oh, my Father … if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me.”Meaning, remove the difficulty from Me, but not as I will, but as Thouwilt. In the end, I leave it to You. But I want You to save Me. And,being in agony, He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat was as if itwere great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Is this how oneman, a person goes to commit suicide? Is this how the person who isordained from the foundation of the earth, for the sacrifice, is thishow He behaves, I ask you?That He is sweating, it says, being in an agony, He prays moreearnestly, and His sweat was as if it were great drops of blood fallingdown to the ground. And the Lord of Mercy sends His angel, says theBible. An angel came to strengthen Him. I say, in what? In the beliefthat God was going to save Him. What does the angel come to strengthenHim in? To save Him. And in everything that happened from there onward,you can see God planning His rescue. Look. The fact was that the pro-phecy He had made was that He would be like Jonah – and we are toldthat He was unlike Jonah. He didn’t fulfill. Jonah is alive, Jesus is dead.Then, Pontius Pilate – he marveled when he was told that Jesus wasdead because in his knowledge, he knew no man can die within threehours on the cross. Because this crucifixion was to be a slow, linger-ing death. This was the real purpose of crucifixion. It was not gettingrid of an anti-social character, like a firing squad, or hanging, orimpaling a person. It was a slow, lingering death.And the bones were not broken – says the Bible. It was a fulfillmentof prophecy. Now, the bones of an individual – of a dead person -whether you break them or not, is of the least consequence. If thebones were not broken, the only time it can help anybody, is if theperson was alive. So you see, for 2,000 years now, it’s a programming,a continuous programming. And Paul has put the whole gamut of religionon one point: on this death and resurrection, because he tells us,I Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 14, that “if Christ is not risen fromthe dead, our preaching is in vain: our faith is in vain.” Useless!You haven’t got a thing!So now, like drowning men clutching at straws, the Christian must,by hook or by crook, prove that somehow crucifixion killed the man, sowe can earn salvation. Now, we would like you, Mr. Chairman, ladies andgentlemen of the jury, to read this book once more, and the testimony,word for word. If you examine the prophecies – what Jesus says. and theway He behaves – they are conclusive proof that Christ had not beencrucified .# Josh McDowellI’m not sure that I heard, but did you say, “Nowhere in the 27 booksof the New Testament did Jesus ever say He was ‘dead and now alive'”?May I read to you from the book of Revelation, chapter 1, verse 18? Hesaid, “I am the living one. I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever-more.” Also, Mr. Deedat, He appeared to the Jews. The whole New Testa-ment Church was started with Jews. He appeared to the Jewish anta-gonist, the apostle Paul, when he was Saul of Tarsus.But men and women, the greatest thrill to me, when it comes to theresurrection and Christ as my Life and Savior, is that God Yahweh haspromised, when a man enters into that relationship through askingChrist to forgive him, who died for our sins, was buried and raisedagain on the third day, that God, the Holy Spirit, enters that personand changes them. And one of the greatest evidences is my own life.After I came to the point where I acknowledged Jesus Christ as mySavior and Lord, surrendered my will up to Him, and trusted Him, menand women, in about six months to a year, or a year and a half, themajor areas of my life were changed.First, I developed a desire to live a holy and godly life. Second, Istarted to experience a peace and genuine joy – it wasn’t because Idon’t have conflict – it’s in spite of conflict, the peace that Godgives through Jesus Christ. Third, I gained control over my temper. Ialmost killed a young man my first year in a university. I was con-stantly losing my temper. After I trusted Jesus as Savior and Lord, Iwould catch myself arising to the crisis of losing my temper, and itwas gone!Not only my friends noticed it, but my enemies did a lot sooner. Andonly once now, in 22 years that I have had a personal relationship withGod Yahweh, the Father, through His Eternal Word, the Son, only oncehave I lost my temper. He has given me a supernatural strength over it.The greatest area, men and women, that I’m thankful I can share here,is the very love of God. In this sense: My father was the town alco-holic. I hardly ever knew my father when he was not drunk. My friendsin school would make jokes about my father making a fool of himself.I lived on a farm and I’d go out to the barn and see my mother lyingin the gutter in the manure – the bathroom of the cows – beaten sobadly by my father, my mother couldn’t get up and walk.We would have friends over. I’d take my father, tie him up in thebam, and park the car up around the side, and tell my friends he hadto go on an important business trip, so I wouldn’t be embarrassed. I’dtake him into the bam where the cows would have their little calves.I’d put his arms through the boards, and tie them. I’d put a ropearound his neck and pull his head all the way over the backboard, andtie it around the feet, so if he shuffled his feet, he would kill himself.One evening, two months before I graduated from high school, I camehome from a date. When I went into the house, I heard my mother cryingprofusely. And I said, “What’s wrong?” She said, “Your father hasbroken my heart. And all I want to do is live until you graduate, thenI just want to die.”Do you know, two months later, I graduated. And the next Friday, the13th, my mother died. Don’t tell me that you can’t die of a brokenheart. My mother did, and my father broke it. There was no one I couldhave hated more. But men and women, when I came into this relationshipwith God Yahweh, through His Eternal Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, aftera short period of time, the love of God took control of my life, andHe took that hatred and turned it upside down.So much so, I was able to look my father square in the eyes and say:”Dad, I love you.” And the neatest thing is, I really meant it! Itransferred to another varsity or university. I was in a serious caraccident with my legs, arm and neck in traction. I was taken home. Myfather came into my room. He was very sober because he thought I wasalmost dead. He asked me this question: “How can you love a fathersuch as I?” I said, “Dad, six months ago, I despised you. I hated you.”Then I shared with him how I’d come to the conclusion seen so clearly,that God Yahweh, the Father, had manifested Himself to us, humanitythrough the Eternal Word, His Son. And then He had died for our sins,that’s the anguish He went through, Mr. Deedat.If you could imagine all the sins in the world – just your sins andmy sins would be enough. But all the sins in the world are upon theSon. The anguish that was involved. And I said, “Dad, I asked Christto forgive me. I asked Him to come into my life as Savior and Lord.”I said, “Dad, as the result of that, I have found the capacity to loveand accept not only you, but other people just the way they are.”I can look at you, Mr. Deedat, and say, “I honestly love you … Godhas given me a love for you … I love you so much, I would love tohave you come to know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.” And my fatherfinally just said, “Son, if your God can do in my life what I have seenHim do in your life, then I want to know Him personally.”Right there, my father just prayed something like this: “God, ifYou’re God, and Christ is the Eternal Word, Your Son, if You can for-give me and come into my life and change me, then I want to know Youpersonally.”Men and women, my life was basically changed in six months to a year,to a year and a half. And there are still many areas for God to change.But then, take my father. His life was changed right before my eyes.Mr. Deedat, it was like somebody reached out and turned on a lightbulb. Do you know, he only touched whiskey once after that. He got itto his lips, and that was it. He didn’t need it anymore. Fourteenmonths later, he died. Because three-fourths of his stomach had to beremoved, as a result of 40-some years of drinking. But do you know,ladies and gentlemen, in that 14-month period, scores of businessmenin my home town and the surrounding area committed their lives to theliving God, through the Eternal Word, Jesus Christ, because of thechanged life of one of the town’s drunks.My wife, Dottie, puts it this way. She says, “Honey, because Christwas raised from the dead, He lives. And because He lives, He has theinfinite capacity through the Holy Spirit to enter a man or woman’slife, and change them from the inside out.” That is why the resur-rected, living Christ said in one of the 27 books of the New Testament,”I was dead, now I am alive.” He can say, “I stand at the door of yourlife and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I willcome in.”* CLOSING STATEMENTS# Ahmed DeedatMr. Chairman and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Man is coward bynature. From the beginning of Adam, you remember, passing the buck.It’s not me, it’s the woman; and the woman, it’s not me, it’s the ser-pent. Man is coward by nature. And we want somebody else to carry theburden for us. We want somebody else to take the medicine when we aresick. We want somebody else’s appendix to be removed, when ours isrotten. This is man in general.But this is not what Jesus Christ said. He wanted you to take up yourown cross – get yourself crucified. Listen! He says, “He is not of Mewho does not take his cross and follow Me.” Take up your cross andfollow Me. In other words. Get yourself crucified. No, no, no. No, Hedidn’t mean that. What He meant was, that as I carry My responsibility,you carry yours. As I pray, you pray. As I fast. you fast: as I’mcircumcised, you be circumcised, what I do, you do. You carry your ownresponsibility.This is what He meant. Now, that is the Islamic system! This is whatIslam teaches. You see, the system that saves you after years of al-coholism, after years of pinching 10 cents from the collection plate,you read it here, in Josh’s book, He says every Sunday, the only thinghe got out of church was he was putting in 25 cents and taking out 35for milk-shakes. And then, later on in life, if you study, we find thesame thing is being done on a very high level of intellectualism, Butwe haven’t got the time to go into that.Let me end with the message of Jesus: He says, “Verily, verily, I sayunto you, except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of thescribes and the pharisees, you shall by no means enter the kingdom ofheaven.” There’s no heaven for you. This is what He says; these are Hiswords. And what is happening is, you are not contradicting His words.This is Islam! Unless you are better than the Jews, there is no heavenfor you.He didn’t say it’s the blood, but your righteousness, You must bebetter than the Jews, You must fast, as the Jews fasted, but on ahigher level: you must pray, as the Jews prayed, but on a higher level,you must give charity, as the Jews gave charity, but on a higher level.And that is Islam.So, Mr, Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I say that thisresurrection, as has been addressed by Josh in America, under theheading, “Hoax or History,” I will conclude that here are one thousandmillion people being taken for a ride on a cross. In Durban, everyweek, we have horses taking thousands of people for a ride – everyhorse. But here, you are being taken for a ride on the cross.Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.# Josh McDowellMr, Deedat, nowhere in the Christian Bible revealed by God is aChristian ever commanded to be crucified. We are told to acknowledgethat we are already crucified in Jesus Christ.In Romans 8:32, God, speaking from eternity into time, says, “He whodid not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up … up for us all.” Inmy country, a young lady, who was picked up for speeding, was broughtbefore the judge, The judge said, “Guilty or not guilty?” and she said,”Guilty.” He brought down the gavel, and the judge fined her $100 or 10days. Then, an amazing thing took place. The judge stood up, took offhis robe, placed it over the back of the chair, went down in front, andpaid the fine. He was a just judge. His daughter had broken the law.No matter how much he loved his daughter, he had to say $100 or 10days. But he loved her enough, he was willing to go down, and take thepenalty upon himself, and pay it. This is a clear illustration of whatGod Yahweh has revealed through His Holy Word. God loves us. Christdied for us. The Bible very clearly points out the wages of sin isdeath. So, God had to bring down the gavel.But, men and women, He loved us so much, He was able to set asideHis judicial robe, and come down in the form of the man Jesus Christ.And go to the cross and pay the price for us. And now, He can say, “Istand at the door of your life and knock. And if anyone hears My voice,and opens the door, I will come in.”Yes, Mr. Deedat, one billion Christians are riding on the cross. Weare being taken for a ride. I believe God has provided the cross asthe chariot to heaven, through the shed blood of His divine Son.Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, for giving me theprivilege, as a person from another country, to come here, and Mr.Deedat, I am greatly indebted to you for this opportunity. And if youcome to my country, we’ll have dinner together. Thank you.THE END.*This text was copied from a Christian Web Site called “Christian Answers to Islam”.